Fantasy time

[Scud]

"That'll buff right out.."      Well, if oversize bearings are available (haven't looked) I'll bet .020" will clean it up. The oil pump is obviously toast, and depending on how well the oil filter did, maybe rocker arm bushings, etc.

 

Here's hoping that machining and oversize bearings will do the job. 

 

But how can we assume that the oil pump is toast when we also know that the oil filter came loose and was sitting in the pan? I would assume the oil pump is still good - it has a screen around the pickup to prevent it from passing the worst of the debris, and it would have been simply recirculating oil into the sump when the filter dislodged. Maybe the pump should be cleaned/inspected though.

[Lucky Phil]

I ''think" only stock size bearings are available from the factory.  Anyone want to chime in ?

You can use the undersize bearings from the earlier models I here, like the old Ambassadors etc

Was you oil pressure warning light working in the end?

 

Ciao

[gstallons]

​Inspect EVERYTHING and leave nothing to question .

[Chuck]

 

"That'll buff right out.."      Well, if oversize bearings are available (haven't looked) I'll bet .020" will clean it up. The oil pump is obviously toast, and depending on how well the oil filter did, maybe rocker arm bushings, etc.

 

Here's hoping that machining and oversize bearings will do the job. 

 

But how can we assume that the oil pump is toast when we also know that the oil filter came loose and was sitting in the pan? I would assume the oil pump is still good - it has a screen around the pickup to prevent it from passing the worst of the debris, and it would have been simply recirculating oil into the sump when the filter dislodged. Maybe the pump should be cleaned/inspected though.

 

I came in late on this thread, and didn't realize it was the infamous loose oil filter that caused the problem. I'd still be concerned about the pump, though. It's the only thing that doesn't get filtered oil. I'll bet that there was swarf hitting the oil pump before the total failure.

I have a strong suspicion that there was a run of bad UFI gaskets, not to mention the leaking around the crimp, and quit using them.  

[docc]

True concerns about the UFI filters, and any filter with round section gasket (rather than flat).

 

Craig, what kind of filter fell off?

[Craig]

True concerns about the UFI filters, and any filter with round section gasket (rather than flat).

 

Craig, what kind of filter fell off?

 

It was a Wix 51215 with a square rubber O-ring.

 

I have a new pump waiting to go in.  The old one was scored up a bit.  There are 2-3 tiny (~0.5mm) pits on the crankcase surface of the pump as well.  I don't think they will hurt.

 

I am completely tearing down the engine.  At this point the only thing left together is the oil regulator and I have yet to get the studs out of the crank case.

[docc]

 

True concerns about the UFI filters, and any filter with round section gasket (rather than flat).

 

Craig, what kind of filter fell off?

 

It was a Wix 51215 with a square rubber O-ring.

 

I have a new pump waiting to go in.  The old one was scored up a bit.  There are 2-3 tiny (~0.5mm) pits on the crankcase surface of the pump as well.  I don't think they will hurt.

 

I am completely tearing down the engine.  At this point the only thing left together is the oil regulator and I have yet to get the studs out of the crank case.

 

Ouch - that's the filter I use.

 

If I may ask, what did you use for a tightening procedure? I ask because I was raised in the era of "tighten by hand" or "finger tight . . . . "  for automotive-type canister filters.

[Lucky Phil]

 

True concerns about the UFI filters, and any filter with round section gasket (rather than flat).

 

Craig, what kind of filter fell off?

 

It was a Wix 51215 with a square rubber O-ring.

 

I have a new pump waiting to go in.  The old one was scored up a bit.  There are 2-3 tiny (~0.5mm) pits on the crankcase surface of the pump as well.  I don't think they will hurt.

 

I am completely tearing down the engine.  At this point the only thing left together is the oil regulator and I have yet to get the studs out of the crank case.

 

Why do you need to remove the crankcase studs?

Ciao

[Chuck]

The Lario pressure relief valve blew off at 20# after some cam junk had gone through it. (or maybe was blowing off all the time) (!!)Here's an extremely complicated fixture, made at great expense to check it. Had to lap the piston back in, and it was good to go.

[Chuck]

 

 

It was a Wix 51215 with a square rubber O-ring.

 

Crap. There went my bad o ring on UFIs theory. 

[Scud]

Chuck - as a pilot, perhaps you have heard of the chain of events, not the search for the single-cause, that are common in human-factor errors in flight safety. I think that's what we have here (and we've probably all done it at some level, I know I have).

 

Chain of events:

1. Normal routine disrupted: hose clamp left off. And filter probably not on tight enough because hose clamp is normally relied on to provide security
2. Hose clamp noticed after assembly - and decision not to re-install till next oil change
3. Oil pressure light not working (the only mechanical, non-human, event in this chain)
4. Failure to notice that oil pressure light did not illuminate with key-on
5. Enough riding/vibration to loosen oil filter
6. Result: engine damage

It took all 5 events to get to number 6 - and therefore the end result could have been prevented if any of those 5 events did not occur. For others, a bad O-ring (or two O-rings where there should be one) becomes a significant event in the chain (but not this time).

 

@Craig - I'm not trying to criticize you. I appreciate your honesty about the situation (and I am 100% sympathetic). I hope we all (self-included) learn something from it. I often get interrupted (dinner, kids, phone calls, etc.) during my projects. That's when I am most likely to make a mistake - I forget where I was in the process when I restart.

[Chuck]

 

 

And filter probably not on tight enough because hose clamp is normally relied on to provide security

 

Maybe. Ya know, it *shouldn't* be necessary to put a steenkin hose clamp on the filter. I know that UFIs had some *issues* with their gaskets (I had two when I was using up my stock) and there have been tales of UFIs leaking at the crimp. I had one of those, too.. on the Norge. 

So. I have been fat, dumb, and happy using the Bosch 3330 and no hose clamp. I lube the gasket, turn it as tight as I can by hand, and then use a wrench to get another 3/4 of a turn.

Now, I'm a little concerned. This is the first time I've heard of any filter *other* than a UFI coming off. If I *knew* Craig didn't tighten it enough, I'd feel better.  

[Lucky Phil]

Chuck - as a pilot, perhaps you have heard of the chain of events, not the search for the single-cause, that are common in human-factor errors in flight safety. I think that's what we have here (and we've probably all done it at some level, I know I have).

 

Chain of events:

1. Normal routine disrupted: hose clamp left off. And filter probably not on tight enough because hose clamp is normally relied on to provide security
2. Hose clamp noticed after assembly - and decision not to re-install till next oil change
3. Oil pressure light not working (the only mechanical, non-human, event in this chain)
4. Failure to notice that oil pressure light did not illuminate with key-on
5. Enough riding/vibration to loosen oil filter
6. Result: engine damage

It took all 5 events to get to number 6 - and therefore the end result could have been prevented if any of those 5 events did not occur. For others, a bad O-ring (or two O-rings where there should be one) becomes a significant event in the chain (but not this time).

 

@Craig - I'm not trying to criticize you. I appreciate your honesty about the situation (and I am 100% sympathetic). I hope we all (self-included) learn something from it. I often get interrupted (dinner, kids, phone calls, etc.) during my projects. That's when I am most likely to make a mistake - I forget where I was in the process when I restart.

What you are refering to is the "Swiss Cheese" model of accident causation, well known in the aviation industry. For those interested in such things check the link

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model)

I've seen many filter related issues over the years and generally over torquing can be as bad as under torquing filters.Under torquing them sees too little compression of the seal and they will come loose, over torquing them sees seal distortion and the seal can leak or under some conditions be displaced and leak catastrophically (cold oil and high pressure)

I've seen them come loose and throw the rider off in an Australian Superbike round, I've had them pop the filter seal off on a cold morning in the pits warming up the engine before practice (refit the seal and re-torque the filter and its all good??) etc, etc.

I also had an MV 750 for a while there ( modern one) and one model came out with incorrectly machined oil filter mount fitting threads and the filter would come loose after a while. A friend of mine experienced this at Easter Creek on the front straight at a track day. People wildly waving their arms at him as he was tucked in down the chute heading for turn 1 at 250KPH with the bike smoking madly. Didn't see them of course and tipped in with oil all over the rear tire. It didn't end well.

For what its worth I just torque it to the manufacturers specs use no hose clamp and check the oil pressure light is on before start up.

A filter fitted right shouldn't come loose, it doesn't on any other engine (apart from a specific technical issue as with the MV) and a Guzzi twin is nothing special in that regard. I think the main issue is that the old Guzzi is probably worked on by more backyard mechanics than most and not enough regard is given to proper fitment.

 

Ciao

[Scud]

Yes - the Swiss Cheese model, that's exactly what I had in mind. It's a good way of thinking about safety. For a motorcyclist, all kinds of things can be conceptualized as a slice of cheese. Maintenance, fatigue, distractions, environment, time pressure, tire tread depth, etc.

 

The goal with this type of thinking is to close as many holes as possible, such that when new ones open up (a car turning in front of you is a piece of cheese with a huge hole in it) that the accident is prevented by a different piece of cheese (you are alert and sober; there are only a couple tiny holes in that slice). And when an accident does happen - to learn from all the layers and try to close the holes for future.

 

I don't bother with a hose clamp either. I've been using 1 1/8 turns past first contact - which is probably about the same as hand-tight plus 3/4 turn that Chuck mentioned.

[docc]

There is a "torque it to the manufacturers specs" for the oil filter?

 

I have been relying on Ryland3210's work looking into this and use his recommendation to tighten one and one-eighth turn after gasket contact. I'll admit it is much tighter than I would have naturally tightened an oil filter.

 

There is a torque spec for the V11 oil filter? I don't see it in the Workshop Manual?