jrt Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 But they are different- the Guzzi bolt pattern is 3:3:3 and the RAM is 2:2:2 ???? J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi323 Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 But they are different- the Guzzi bolt pattern is 3:3:3 and the RAM is 2:2:2???? J 34484[/snapback] If you mean the sets of holes around the perimiter of the flywheel, the middle hole us used for the positioning pin which is a pressed in steel pin used to locate the pressure plate. There are 3 sets of two bolts (with the locating pin between the pairs) which hold the entire assembly together. If I'm understanding your question. johnk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Well, ok. That makes sense. I didn't look closely at the back side...or take a picture of it, so I honestly don't remember how many bolts went where along with locating dowels, etc. Thanks for the info, John. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Do we know of any single plate clutch failures on models other than the Scura? Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Do we know of any single plate clutch failures on models other than the Scura? Was thinking about that...A V11 Tenni rode to a finish at the TT a couple years ago - maybe you saw it? Dunno if it was on std clutch - but it sure would have used it. Apparently some Tonti frames are having problems with their single plates but I think it is a completely different clutch. I haven't heard of any failures on Tenni/Rosso Mandello, but I believe they are far fewer than Scuras. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Was thinking about that...A V11 Tenni rode to a finish at the TT a couple years ago - maybe you saw it? Dunno if it was on std clutch - but it sure would have used it.Apparently some Tonti frames are having problems with their single plates but I think it is a completely different clutch. I haven't heard of any failures on Tenni/Rosso Mandello, but I believe they are far fewer than Scuras. KB 34532[/snapback] Yes, I did see it. I would guess ity would be using the single plate RAM clutch. Does that infer that all RAM clutches, may be suspect? Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 The Tonti frame single plate clutch failures are all down to the friction material disitegrating rather than the flywheel itself. I've just heard of the first Scura clutch I've heard of disintegrating in Oz on a bloke down in Melbourne's bike. Yucky! Anyway, the earlier pic posted is of one of the aftermarket alluminium flywheels of the *conventional* design which are an alternative to the RAM unit for people with the older style clutch who want to shed some weight from the flywheel assembley. To be honest I have no qualms about recommending thes to people as I've not had one fail, and I've installed a good few of them. Notice that it also comes with a different thrust cup, this is because the actual *Back* of the wheel is thicker where it bolts to the crank so the whole clutch is moved towards the gearbox. The thrust cup has been machined to compensate so the pushrod doesn't come back too far to be adjusted properly on the arm at the back of the box. I know this isn't strictly relevant to this thread but it is probably usefull in clearing up misunderstandings over what is what. I know that many people swear by the RAM clutches, I've installed a few and I always think that the way they carry their weight right out away from the axis of rotation must negate some of the benefits they claim. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are a bad product at all, simply that as a one-eyed traditionalist I can't see anything really wrong with the earlier system. Having said that I do know that Guzzi had to do something about improving the clamping force of the clutches on the V11 series as the old design was begining to show signs of having reached it's limits of endurance, even in it's final 10 spring itteration as used on the Centauro, 100 Sport and Daytonas. I think if I owned a Scura I'd be replacing the stock unit as a precaution. It's important to remember that none of the alluminium wheels are designed to use any sort of friction washer between the bolt heads and the wheel itself. Flat washers should be used to spread the load but using schnoores tends to damage the alloy resulting in stress raisers being started. On all the alloy wheels I've installed I use 1.0 bolts with flat washers and some loctite 243 to keep 'em still. Remember, it isn't the bolts that drive the flywheel, it's friction between the back of the wheel and the end of the crank, all the bolts do is give the clamping force. If they are loose they will not only damahe the wheel as it rattles around but they will shear in very short order if large loads are applied. HT bolts are designed to work in TENSION, (oddly enough ) not in shear. They don't like that at all!!!! Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 ... I've just heard of the first Scura clutch I've heard of disintegrating in Oz on a bloke down in Melbourne's bike. ... Pete, Can you post any details of this? More evidence we can show the better to encourage Guzzi to get off their arses. Copies of photos of clutch failures I trawled of this forum sent to Guzzi (Aprilia UK) by dealer - I am told they were not impressed. Thanks for your input on this. I am considering replacing the clutch as you say, but if things are as they appear, it should be a warranty job. Also, it is still unclear to me why these clutches failed or indeed wether I would simply be replacing like w/like if I put a RAM unit in. I like the way the single plate spins up & don't really want to go back to a twin plate. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 ....Remember, it isn't the bolts that drive the flywheel, it's friction between the back of the wheel and the end of the crank, all the bolts do is give the clamping force. If they are loose they will not only damahe the wheel as it rattles around but they will shear in very short order if large loads are applied. HT bolts are designed to work in TENSION, (oddly enough ) not in shear. They don't like that at all!!!!... Pete, If the failures are being caused by loose bolts we should be seeing some broken bolts? Thanks,KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Pete, Can you post any details of this? More evidence we can show the better to encourage Guzzi to get off their arses. Copies of photos of clutch failures I trawled of this forum sent to Guzzi (Aprilia UK) by dealer - I am told they were not impressed. Thanks for your input on this. I am considering replacing the clutch as you say, but if things are as they appear, it should be a warranty job. Also, it is still unclear to me why these clutches failed or indeed wether I would simply be replacing like w/like if I put a RAM unit in. I like the way the single plate spins up & don't really want to go back to a twin plate. KB 34586[/snapback] All good points, KB. I am with you on all counts. When you say they were not impressed do you mean they were concerned, or did they just fob you off? There is no use going through this agony & expense time & time again. Everything wears out eventually, but we have to be replacing with something that is proven not to fail in spectacular fashion! Pete....Very useful input, matey! Do you have a recommendation for a single-plate fitment that isn't likely to fail in spectacular fashion? Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 I've just heard of the first Scura clutch I've heard of disintegrating in Oz on a bloke down in Melbourne's bike. Yucky! 34557[/snapback] Does that make it 6 failures?...I've lost track of how many are known to the group. Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 ...When you say they were not impressed do you mean they were concerned, or did they just fob you off?... I gave the info to a dealer who copied it to Aprilia UK. The dealer told me their reaction was along the lines of "do I really want to know about this?"... I haven't spoke directly with Aprilia UK - although today I sent them an email thru www.motoguzzi.it noting my concern & asking for comment. So far we've heard here of 5 failures: Paul's - documented w/photos - Guzzi warranted German one - w/photos - Guzzi warranted (I think) Robertos (UK) - w/photos - Warranted? French one mentioned by Zebulon/Pual - no documentation - Guzzi warranted Australian one mentioned by Pete - no documentation KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 I'd love to be able to give suggestions as to what to fit. Unfortunately I can't. I have very little to do with the newer bikes, not because I don't want to, simply because there aren't very many around here. NSW has always been a Guzzi wasteland and while the official dealers don't grease splines, *forget* to reinstall the clamp bolts for the oil galleries on Calis, refuse to admit that safety recalls exist and then claim to of performed the work while not having done so and seem unwilling to do, or supply for, warranty claims I'd say there is very little chance of there being many more of them around If I don't get to look at them I can't either try and find sources of the *Good S#it* or try to fathom out why bits are going tits-up in the first place. If you look at my *profile* you'll see I own 'Lots of old shite', the reason for this is because it does everything I want so I'm not in the market for a *new* Guzzi, or any other brand for that matter. I'm very interested in, and want the company to do well and have many happy customers and I'll always try and give help and suggestions where I can. I won't though try and give advice on stuff I know very little or nothing about. The likes of Paul are going to be far more helpful to you here than I am, sorry. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Pete, Your input is still valued & most welcome! It is a pity that the company seems so lack-lustre & casual about after-sales back-up! Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 I had a reply from Guzzi acknowledging my email & asking me to put any such questions thru my dealer. Std reply like you Nige I think. I have asked them again for their comments specific to this problem. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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