audiomick
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Posts posted by audiomick
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The "small block" Guzzis are actually the "real" Tontis. Not just the frame, but rather the whole bike is a Tonti.
Mine.
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51 minutes ago, docc said:
... ( I ) think ...the lack of oil light, KOEO, is not related to the charging issue(s).
Yes, I think so too.
I think it might possibly be related to the charge light not coming on KOEO, but I don't think that is the cause of the charging issue(s) either. I still suspect that there are more than one fault, and that this is confusing the issue(s) somewhat.
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Thanks for that, @Joe.
There was a Karmann Ghia somewhere in there, which reminded me of this. I haven't ever seen it, just read about it on the Interweb. Sounds like fun, though.
https://www.bader-racing.de/en/home/home_news.htm
A quote from the site:
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The last ‘real’ aircooled Porsche engine fits perfectly in the aircooled Karmann Ghia. The base version of the 993 engine with 3,6 liters and 286 h.p. was tuned with racing parts and now achieves a power of 320 h.p. with a torque of 386 Nm.Optimised cylinder heads, sport camshafts, RS rocker arms, an optimised exhaust system and a newly programmed engine management catapult the street machine into new dimensions.
The 6 speed manual transmission with differential block transmits this power via Cup Constant velocity joints on the street.
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2 hours ago, Sam P said:
This is what my DMM shows at all ohm settings between the blue wire and GND.
That looks like an open circuit = no connection. But if that is between the wire itself and ground, that is to be expected.
What I'm interested in is not the incoming wire to ground, but the connection that it plugs on to to ground. And under various conditions: key on, engine off. Engine running. Engine running at the revs where the light has been going on.
Ideally: connect the DMM, see what it is showing, turn on the key, see what the DMM is showing, start the motor, see what the DMM is showing, slowly increase the revs and observe what the DMM shows during this.
What I'm interested in is if the regulator is switching that contact to ground as it should, or at least under which conditions it is doing so.
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3 hours ago, Sam P said:
... various DMM settings. (I am
stupid, ignorant,uneducated about which is the appropriate or meaningful setting):70 @ 200
7 @ 2000
0 @ 20K
You're seeing the same reading there every time. It is 70 Ohm. It shows up as 70 in the 200 range (i.e. "up to 200") because that is the appropriate range. Appropriate because the actual value is in the same order of magnitude as the range.
The 7 in the 2000 range is no doubt also 70 Ohm, but doesn't look like it because the decimal point is at a different place in the display.
I was having trouble trying to explain this, so I measured a pair of headphones with the DMM in the workshop here.
Set to the 200 range, I see 57.8 and off to the right in the display an Ω symbol.
So the display can show 3 digits, and in that range it is showing Ohm.
In the 2000 range, I see .058 and off to the right the symbol kΩ
So in that range, the display is showing kiloohm to three decimal places, and the value is 58 thousendths of 1 kiloohm = 58 Ohm (rounded up from 57.8)
And so it goes on, the device only has a couple of digits to work with, and moves the decimal point and the order of magnitude around to suit the range it is supposed to be measuring.
The best way of measuring resistance, if you don't know what you are looking for, is to start at the big end (with the probes connected) and step down through the ranges until you get a sensible reading (a whole number of the unit rather than a couple of thousands of the unit a couple of orders of magnitude bigger).
This method is even more important measuring volts: your DMM wont like being exposed to 12 V if it is set to read mV. If in doubt, start at the big end of the available ranges and step down until you get a sensible reading.
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3 hours ago, docc said:
Sport-Norge!
You think? My first thought was "overweight Stelvio", but I expect it is just an unflattering photo.
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5 minutes ago, Sam P said:
... the first Odyssey showed signs of bubbling and bloating - with no alert from the charging lamp - I assumed the regulator was bad, and that the reg was overcharging the battery,...
Next, I took the bike for a ride and the battery light lit up again, so I suspected the stator - sending too many AC volts to the regulator - ...
...The next ride, the lamp started to activate at 3-4K rpm, which is where we are now.
I reckon the first assumtion was good. Battery cooked = regulator is not doing it's stuff, too many Volts into the battery = dead battery. Been there, done that (more than once...
). In those cases, the battery light didn't come on. I don't know for sure that the battery light never shows overcharging, but I understand it to be that the light generally only comes on when the system is undercharging.
In that context, I would question the second assumption. Given that I don't expect the warning light to show overcharging, I wouldn't expect it to come on if the stator is delivering too many volts. Apart from the warning light, the regulator should take care of too many volts. That is, after all, what it is there for. The alternator delivers a voltage that increases with revs. The regulator is supposed to keep that under control and make sure that never more than about 14V gets through to the charging system.
Regarding the third point, I've already written that I suspect that there are two problems. From the information that you have provided, it seems that your charging system is currently not working, despite the new regulator and stator. Therefore the charge warning light should be lit up all the time.
It isn't, so it is fair to assume that there is also a problem somewhere in the circuit that the warning lamp is in.
I'd still like to know what the resistance (Ohm) measurement is between the connector for the warning lamp to the regulator (where the blue wire is connected) to ground. If the regulator is behaving correctly, that should be close to zero with the key on, engine off, "infinite" with the engine running and the charging system working properly, and close to zero if the charging system is not working properly.
If that is not the case, the regulator might have a problem, or there might be bad connections somewhere else. If it is the case, the warning light circuit would seem to have a problem that is confusing the issue.
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32 minutes ago, docc said:
...Rather than the "tender" approach, I have grown fond of charging ...then terminate charge and let the battery gradually discharge. Repeat when the static charge reaches...
27 minutes ago, docc said:... the odd charging light behaviour...
Makes me think something also got cooked in the harness/connectors - seemingly in the circuit involving the instrument panel . . .
24 minutes ago, Sam P said:Not to derail my own thread on my charging issue, but it sounds like going forward I should stop using the Battery Tender and use your protocol quoted here, amirite?
A few words on this...
Basically, I'm of the same opinion as @docc here.
Regarding batteries: modern Lithium-ion batteries are much better at not getting a "memory", living with lower charge states and what-have-you. As a sound engineer, I've spent the last 40-odd years dealing with things that run on batteries. Experience shows that it is better to regularly make sure they get charged properly, then let them cycle for a while as the manufacurer intended, then make sure they get a good charge, then let them cycle, and so on. The lead-acid variants that we find in our motorcycles belong to the category that this applies to. Cheap trickle chargers don't do the business. Docc has the right approach: proper charger, let it cycle, proper charger.
And now, back to the topic in question: why is your charging system doing weird bollocks?
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Mea culpa: I just realised I didn't do the math to the end here
I've corrected myself there, and here
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1 hour ago, Sam P said:
I am trying to follow your analysis, which I appreciate, but do you have a recommendation for next steps? Perhaps I missed this.... Thank you in advance!
No concrete reccomendation, I'm afraid.
What @gstallons was getting at here
was to check for continuity from where the power that makes the warning light go on, the output of the lighting relay, to the wire after the warning light that goes into the regulator, where it is switched to earth by the regulator when the charging system isn't working.
As far as I can tell, you did measure between the correct points, and saw 15 Ohms. There is a light bulb in that circuit, the warning lamp, so the resistance wont be zero. Apart from that, the wires themselves will have a resistance, albeit very low. Whatever, maybe the 15 Ohms are ok. Without knowing the wattage of the light bulb, it's guesswork.
Thinking about it, if one assumes slightly ratty connections, and takes a couple of Ohm away from the light bulb for that, the wattage for the light starts heading towards 1.5 Watt, which is plausible, I think.
EDIT: the maths were wrong. I just went back an looked at it again, and realise that in fact there is a total of something like 9.6 Watt being generated. That is, I reckon, actually too much for a warning lamp, so probably the lamp itself plus some ratty connections.
I still suspect that there are two perhaps unrelated issues here, i.e. the weird business that the charge warning lamp only comes on at high revs, not at key on engine off, and the indications (never more than about 12,3 Volt at the battery) that the system is never charging, not only not charging at high revs.
As @docc mentioned further up, the fact that the oil light doesn't go on at key on engine off is also weird. The oil pressure switch is a simple switch that opens when the oil pressure rises. Therefore, it also must light when the ignition is turned on, until the motor is running.
As far as that goes, maybe there is indeed a bad connection in the dash somewhere. Both of those lights get their power from the same source, via connector #8 on the wiring diagram which is most likely the 12 pole Amp connector you mentioned further up.
Without saying it is the only way to go, I would personally want to know that those warning lights are functioning the way they are intended, and would focus on that first. The reason being, if the charge warning light is doing unexpected stuff, it may be masking the charging problem (but not causing it!).
On the other hand, if the supply to that light is not solid, that may affect the regulator. I would expect the regulator to overcharge in that case, but don't know for sure if it really would.
EDIT: forgot to mention...
The next thing I would do at this point is measure the resistance (Ohm) from the input for the blue wire on the regulator (not the wire itself, the connector on the regulator) to ground. Firstly key on, engine off, then at various motor speeds. It should be open (almost zero Ohms) without the engine running, and closed (very high resistance) with the engine running. What happens there when the engine hits the engine speed at which the light has been coming on would also be interesting.
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10 minutes ago, docc said:
Just an addendum: the turn signals are on their own circuit.
Give that man a cigar.
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On 9/21/2025 at 4:57 PM, Sam P said:
With ohm meter set at 200, I got 15 ohms, between the blue wire and the center terminal pictured below. What does this mean?
It means there is a resistance in there somewhere, but I think you know that.
If my maths are correct, that would mean something is generating 0.8 Watts. That is, I reckon, to low for a light bulb, unless perhaps it is a small LED. Assuming there are no LED's involved, I'd be more inclined to suspect a bab connection, or maybe an incorrect measurement. For a good connection, I'd expect it to be less than 1 Ohm.
EDIT: the maths were wrong. Not 0.8 Watts generated, but rather 0.8 Amps flowing. That means 9.6 Watts, which is too high for the lamp in the circuit, I reckon. So the 15 Ohms is possibly a light bulb plus a bad connection or two.
On 9/21/2025 at 11:25 PM, Sam P said:2000 ohm setting on the DMM is the same as the 200 setting, i.e. 15.
The 20K ohm setting yields a reading of 0.01
The 200K ohm setting reads zero.
Not sure what this all means....
It means the multi-meter is seeing the same resistance in all of its ranges. Up until 2000 Ohm, the resistance is big enough to register properly.
In the 20kOhm setting, the meter is still seeing it, but rounding the actual 0.015 off to 0.01.
In the 200kOhm setting the resistance is no doubt still being measured, but is too small for that range to appear on the scale.
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On 9/21/2025 at 12:49 AM, Sam P said:
... a 12-way Amp connector. Assume I could get the multimeter needle into the connector, or would I need to remove the wire to take the reading? ...
If the probe from the multi-meter wont go in, stick something in that will fit and measure off that. A paper clip, maybe...
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On 9/20/2025 at 3:00 PM, Sam P said:
Well the DMM reads 12.3vDC at the battery terminals, at idle and when revved. Now I'm not sure if that's volts coming from the regulator, or if it's reading the current from the battery.
You've mixed up terms there. You're not measuring current, that is the amount of electricity that is flowing at a point in time. You're measuring voltage. That's the "electrical pressure", correct term "electrical potential", that is present at that point in the circuit.
You're quite right to consider whether the volts are being pushed in from the regulator or are coming from the battery. That is the correct question.
The fact that the voltage is not changing at any revs indicates that the regulator is not "pushing volts into the battery". If it were, as has been mentioned further up, the voltage at that point should go up to around 14V at higher revs.
It isn't, so the volts are getting lost in the regulator (it's malfunctioning) or not getting from the regulator to the battery (bad connection).
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On 9/19/2025 at 9:27 PM, Sam P said:
I just cleaned up this connector with Deoxit. Fired up the engine and am still seeing only 12.3vdc at the battery. Thought I should check the output voltage from the reg/rec going into this connection, which I have not done yet. What should the voltage be at idle and with some revs? If the voltage is not good, then the rec/rec is malfunctioning, correct? (I have tested the AC voltage from the stator yellow wires, and it looked OK).
I think you have that the wrong way around. As far as I can tell, the black wire between that connector and the regulator feeds the 12V reference from the red-black wire into the regulator, and the white one is the connection from the warning lamp(blue wire) into the regulator.
The voltages coming into the connector from the wiring loom should be close to the same as battery + at all revs.
If the voltage coming in from the red-black wire deviates from battery + too much, the regulator will think the battery is not being charged and put too much voltage out on the feed to the battery.
A "wrong" voltage on the blue wire coming into the white wire to the regulator should not be able to cause the regulator to malfunction.
EDIT: I see @docc has already said that here:
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@Sam P I was away over the weekend. Reading over what has been posted in the last couple of days, it seems you don't always know why you are measuring what people suggest. I made rough and simple sketch of the charging circuit, in the hope that it will
confuse you even furthermaybe help a bit.
Hope that helps you understand what is going on.
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On 9/21/2025 at 1:06 AM, Lucky Phil said:
Well just because the manufacturer tells you to run a certain grade and sometimes even a particular brand of oil doesn't mean it's the best solution. To start with manufacturers can "align" themselves with oil manufacturers ...
Add to that the fact that oil specs are changing and evolving all the time ...
So Mick I put the manufacturers recommendations on oil in the "for the guidance for the wise and the blind obedience of fools" category.
Phil
Thanks, Phil.
I'm aware that what is in the owner's or workshop book isn't likely to be the absolutely ideal option. Too many factors involved, and born out by having seen different recommendations for the same bike in different translations of the workshop book.
To be quite honest, I'm also not looking for the absolute best solution for each of my bikes, but rather a solution that will cover all of them adequately. The old Guzzi bulletin seems to confirm that I can get away with one weight for all three. The reason is very simple: I don't have room to be keeping supplies of different oil for each motor and gearbox, and I also honestly can't be buggered. If I can find one that fits all without any of them exploding, I'm happy.
I know that wont appeal to your engineer's sense of what is right, but I believe I'm justified in seeing myself to be following "the guidance for the wise", i.e. I consider it to be an informed decision. Hope I'm right.
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Incidendtally, @Sam P, with all this dicking around on a bike that is apparently not charging, don't forget to keep an eye on the charge state of the battery, and put it on a tender as necessary. If it is half flat, the fault finding wont get any easier.
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4 hours ago, docc said:
It occurs to me that addressing the charging problem would be primary.
Once it is charging, the light behavior may take care of itself.
I'm not convinced about that, although, of course, you may be right.
Much thought on the topic has led me to believe that the light might have some intermittant defect that is making it difficult to see how the charging problem is behaving. The "voltage at the battery" values that @Sam P has confirmed, i.e. 13.x key off, 12.3 or so engine running regardless of r.p.m., indicate that it is never charging. The charge lamp, however, indicates that it is only failing to charge at revs above 4k.
That is why I want to know whether the regulator is switching the contact for the warning light to ground always, or only at the higher revs, i.e. if the warning lamp is doing what the regulator tells it to do, or if the warning lamp has a fault of its own, independant of the charging problem.
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So, thanks for the last couple of posts. As I wrote further up, I have decided on the strength of a Guzzi bulletin from some time ago to put 10W60 in all three of mine. The last couple of posts have further confirmed this decision. Why? I don't do an awful lot of miles, I do ride all year. That means also at temperatures around 0°C plus/minus a couple. I do ride more short trips (to work and back) than I do trips out of town. But the trips out of town do happen. So I want a wide range to cover the short, cold trips and the longer trips where the motor gets hot. And I'm not about to start changing the oil twice a year to cover winter conditions differently to summer conditions.
So, a wide range oil. If I ever find a 0W60 I might give that a go too.
If anyone can see a fault in my logic, I'd be glad to read it, but the argumentation needs to be good.
PS: that it is necessary to keep the oil-change interval well within bounds is clear. I've ordered a round tuit to that effect.
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22 hours ago, gstallons said:
My apologies , the MOSFET Q3 turns the charge light on. When the voltage is satisfied , Q3 turns off and light goes off.
Yes, at least in the one in Roy's schematic.
We don't know for sure how the one from Electrosport that @Sam P has installed works. That's why I suggesed he check resistance between the warning lamp connection on the regulator and ground at key on, engine off, and then with the engine running at various speeds. Seeing what happens there should show what the lamp should be doing, and thereby give an indication of whether the lamp itself has a problem.
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1 hour ago, gstallons said:
Uh , SamP states "26v @ 3-5k RPM" . ....
Yes, he did in this post
but posted different values in this later post
I have to admit, I've just been orientating myself on the second one, which looks like undercharging, rather than the first, which would obviously be overcharging.
Perhaps @Sam P could check that again, and confirm which is really the case.
If those values are really fluctuating from measurement to measurement, that would also be interesting.
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In the German forum that I am active in, someone provided a notice from Moto Guzzi about oil viscosities. Here is the text:
Quote
SERIE 750 (Breva und Nevada):
Motoröl: RACING 4T 10W-60 als Alternative 15W-50
Antriebsöl: ROTRA TRUCK GEAR 85 W -140, GL-4+/GL-5
Getriebeöl: ROTRA MP/S 80 W -90, GL-5
SERIE 850-1100-1200 (Breva, Griso und Norge):
Motoröl: RACING 4T 10W-60 Bei diesem Motor wird der Einsatz dieser Ölsorte eingehend empfohlen, da sie auch unter hohen Motortemperaturen optimale Druckwerte gewährleistet.
Antriebsöl: ROTRA MP 80 W -90, GL-5
Getriebeöl: ROTRA MP/S 85 W -90, GL-5
SERIE 1100 California - mechanische Ventilstössel
Motoröl: RACING 4T 10W-60 als Alternative 20W-50
Antriebsöl: ROTRA MP 80 W -90, GL-5
Getriebeöl: ROTRA MP 80 W -90, GL-5
SERIE 1100 California - hydraulische Ventilstössel
Motoröl: RACING 4T 5W-40 Für den korrekten Betrieb der hydraulischen Ventilstössel obligatorisch
Antriebsöl: ROTRA MP 80 W -90, GL-5
Getriebeöl: ROTRA MP 80 W -90, GL-5I can't be buggerd translating the whole business right now, but if you look at the numbers, there's not much to it. "Antriebsöl" means "oil in the final drive", and "Getriebsöl" means "gearbox oil". "Motoröl" is, obviously, the motor.
The last entry, 1100 California, refers to a brief period in which California models had hydraulic lifters. Didn't work well, and didn't last long. "hydraulische Ventilsössel" is them, and "mechanische Ventilstössel" is the "rest of the world", i.e. purely mechanical, nothing hydraulich.
Whatever, as can be deduced from the text, at that point in time Moto Guzzi was recommending 10W60 for everything, except for the "exotic" Californias with the hydraulic tappets.
I've decided, on the strength of that, to put 10W60 full-synthetic in all three of my Guzzis (1982 V35 Imola, 2003 Breva 750 i.e., 2002 V11 Le Mans) and they all seem to be satisfied with that.
As far as the zinc goes, I've seen a lot of oil freds. In 10 replies you usually can expect at least 15 opions, but I can't remember anyone getting uptight about zinc content.
To close up, if I remember correctly, @pete roper once wrote here "Yes, the motor needs oil. Put some in it."
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49 minutes ago, gstallons said:
I want to know why the light is not on w/KOEO , KOER but comes on when (
the alternator is producing an overcharge situation.) the revs get over 4,000Yes, me too, but
26 minutes ago, docc said:This outcome does not support the "overcharging" scenario:
> Not charging <
Which is why I am not convinced that the system is overcharging.
Perhaps it would help if @Sam P would repeat the measurments and confirm or negate the "26V" value for when the charge warning light is on. The later post from Sam, quoted by @docc, which cites only values of 12,xV, indicates that overcharging is not the case, but confirmation might help.
Show us yer Tontis!
in Older models
Posted · Edited by audiomick
It is a lot of fun. Perhaps the best bit is you can flog it as hard as you like, and you never get to silly speeds.
Things to consider: I gather the V35 motor is less prone to problems with the heads and valves because the valves are smaller. The V50 motor has more power, of course, but even it is moderate.
The clutch is heavy on both, but as already written here, the clutch from the V85 /V9 bolts straight in. Much lighter in action, and lighter in weight (kg). While you're in there, get someone to machine down the flywheel (make it thinner). There's a bloke in the german forum that does that, and can get about 1kg off of it, if I remember rightly. Looks like this when he's finished
https://tsmsportz.com/postimg/CR5h3B36
I have a feeling that motor parts are a bit easier to get for the V35, but might be imagining that. If the motor becomes untenable, a V65 or V75 / Breva / Nevada / V7 motor will go in. It's then a bit tight around the carbies, but I know of at least one V50 with a 750 motor in it. It was built by Martin Hageman at Gpiu in Germany for his wife. Having said that, it has the V50 tank on it, not the Monza/Imola tank. With the Monza tank it might get fiddly around the fuel taps as well.
Whatever, my V35 Imola is lots of fun.