Timing Cover Gasket Replacement

[guzziart]

Ok, I answered my own questions...  There is a sub-frame on the Lemans that the regulator, cooler & horns mount to that bolts to the spine, the cam chain cover will not clear it,  So, now I'm struggling with the fuel tank quick disconnects, get the tank off, loosen/remove sub-frame to facilitate cam chain cover removal.  Funny, the last time I disconnected the tank fittings it was easy...not so easy now. 

[al_roethlisberger]

When you go to reinstall the front subframe, can someone provide the torque values for the four main bolts to the spine, and the bolts to the engine case?

I'll have to take my front subframe off in the near future, and that was something I was wondering about.

[guzziart]

5 hours ago, al_roethlisberger said:

When you go to reinstall the front subframe, can someone provide the torque values for the four main bolts to the spine, and the bolts to the engine case?

I'll have to take my front subframe off in the near future, and that was something I was wondering about.

Hi Al,

I'm hoping someone chimes in before i have to figure it out in which case I'll post what I used.

I lucked out in that I only had to remove the aft two subframe bolts, loosen the frt two and tilt the frame forward to provide clearance to get the CCC off.   I thought I'd have to take the tank off which was going to be a problem because I don't think I could bleed off fuel pressure without running the engine....kinda tough without oil cooler & loose ccc.  I loosened the tank and was able to raise it enough to access subframe bolts.

[guzziart]

Ok, I'm obviosly not an expert at posting pics, these look huge.  The the tank has been raised slightly to allow access to subframe bolts...rear bolts are out and frame has been pivotted down to provde clearance to facilitate cam chain cover removal.

 

 

The cam chain cover original gasket.  It was seeping at the tan colored spot on the right a most halfway,  down.  The gasket was easily remioved, it was brittle and no gasket sealer was evident.  I'm going back on with one of those "metal core" gaskets.

[al_roethlisberger]

Mine blew out on the lower right side within a week of taking it home in 2002.  The little bit of gasket was sticking out  

...I had no idea, but my riding buddy noticed it.  Fortunately we were close to home and it was a slow-ish unpressurized leak.

Turns out that this was happening to a batch of bikes where the black "fuzzy" case paint hadn't been cleaned from either the cover or engine case mating faces well enough from the factory, and the gasket didn't adhere.

[guzziart]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:31 AM, al_roethlisberger said:

When you go to reinstall the front subframe, can someone provide the torque values for the four main bolts to the spine, and the bolts to the engine case?

I'll have to take my front subframe off in the near future, and that was something I was wondering about.

Al,

Well, the steel subframe socket head screws that go into the steel spine frame are 10mm x 1.5 and have a "standard torque value" of 33-37 lb.ft. (45-50nm) according to the V11 Lemans shop manual B4,B12.

The two 12mm x 1.75 steel socket head screws that fasten through the subframe and into the aluminum cam chain cover torque value was not in the shop manual, that I could find.  According to a publication by Dodgeram/Allpar forum and Kohler Service Manual cv17-750, General Torque Values indicates the torque to be 41-45 lb.ft (56-61nm).  

So, unless someone chimes in to correct me, those are the values I'm going with.

Art

[audiomick]

Is there a number on the bolt head? 8.8 or 10.9 or 12.9? The torque is dependant on the tensile strength of the bolt, and the number shows what that is.

Going by this document, those bolts must be "standard" M10 and M12 8.8

https://www.anzugsmoment.de/anzugsmoment/

 

 

[guzziart]

Hi Audiomick,

The 10mm is 8.8, the 12mm is unreadable.  I don't recall seeing any coarse 1.75 pitch bolts that were 10.9 or higher in the charts I was looking at or able to find.  So, I'm assuming the 12mm x 1.75 is an 8.8.

On another note, the 96-99 1100 sport has a very similar setup as the Lemans (subframe & spine) but the fastening hardware has different part numbers.  Apparently, another member published torques that were found in his shop manual.  The torque for the "engine to subframe and subframe to frame " he listed as  57lb.ft. (78nm).  Maybe the Sport has 12mm x 1.5 or 1.25, etc. and in all 6 positions in the subframe.  However even if they are all 12mm socket head screws, why would the torque value be same? Four of the screws go into the steel spine, two of the screws go into the aluminum cam chain cover.

Art

 

[guzziart]

Hi All,

FWIW, I still have my Lemans apart.  The brand X metal core gasket (left) wouldn't fit properly, it wouldn't line up with cover holes and wouldn't lay flat when dry fit to cover.  So, I bought a genuine Guzzi metal core gasket from a dealer and it is alot different from the brand X.  The genuine Guzzi gasket is metal core too. Plus, it is corrugated somewhat (right),  Has anyone used one of these and if so, did you use gasket sealer?  Any special installation instructions that I should be aware of?  

Thanks,

Art

[docc]

49 minutes ago, guzziart said:

  The genuine Guzzi gasket is metal core too. Plus, it is corrugated somewhat (right),  Has anyone used one of these and if so, did you use gasket sealer?  Any special installation instructions that I should be aware of?  

 

I hunted down this @Lucky Phil post regarding the Guzzi metal gasket stating it comes with a "pressure sensitive sealant." From this, I would conclude that no additional sealant is necessary or desirable . . .

 

[guzziart]

Thanks Dooc! 

It is sorta what i was thinking but still figured I'd see what you guys thought.  Funny thing is that I put a the original style 12001200 gasket on my Eldo 4 years ago and about 4k miles ago with zero issues and the original gasket on my Lemans took 20 + years to begin leaking although the bike only has 12k miles on it.  So, imho a replacement 12001200 gasket is still a viable option in my pea size brain.  However. I kinda like the looks of Guzzi 's latest iteration (GU05001231) as shown in the previous post.

Art

[Speedfrog]

4 hours ago, guzziart said:

I kinda like the looks of Guzzi 's latest iteration (GU05001231) as shown in the previous post.

Where did you source the timing chest cover gasket #GU05001231?

I checked the usual MG vendors and it doesn’t seem to be of the garden-variety type item.

[gstallons]

19 hours ago, guzziart said:

Hi All,

FWIW, I still have my Lemans apart.  The brand X metal core gasket (left) wouldn't fit properly, it wouldn't line up with cover holes and wouldn't lay flat when dry fit to cover.  So, I bought a genuine Guzzi metal core gasket from a dealer and it is alot different from the brand X.  The genuine Guzzi gasket is metal core too. Plus, it is corrugated somewhat (right),  Has anyone used one of these and if so, did you use gasket sealer?  Any special installation instructions that I should be aware of?  

Thanks,

Art

Just looking at it , I would recommend a good dose of spray-on CopperCoat on both sides. Allow to dry and install.

[docc]

1 hour ago, gstallons said:

Just looking at it , I would recommend a good dose of spray-on CopperCoat on both sides. Allow to dry and install.

Even though there is already a pressure activated sealant applied on both sides?

[guzziart]

2 hours ago, Speedfrog said:

Where did you source the timing chest cover gasket #GU05001231?

I checked the usual MG vendors and it doesn’t seem to be of the garden-variety type item.

Hi Speedfrog,

I got the GU05001231 from Cadre Cycle in Cincy.

"it doesn’t seem to be of the garden-variety type item"......Yep, I have created a headache for myself...use old style paper, fudge on an aftermarket that would definitely leak (imho) or go with what the parts book supercedes to which is GU05001231.  On a positive note, I'm fortunate that the Lemans is not my only bike or only means of transportation.