audiomick Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Just now, LaGrasta said: ... I'm not sure steel loses tensile strength like that,... I can't verify that 100%, but I have heard and read many times that springs can get shagged out. And I've ridden and driven a couple of vehicles where that was obviously the case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Springs can loose their "spring". It does happen. But it would be unusual for it to happen on a motorcycle spring. It tends to happen, for example, on Jeep JK's, which use coil springs, if your springs are low quality and not properly heat treated. That, combined with the heavy nature of a Jeep, can result in the springs sagging. But I doubt the stock V11 spring would be prone to that. More likely what might feel like the springs being worn out is the shocks being worn out. The shocks are there to control the springs. That said, the stock spring is not always the right rate for the rider depending on the riders weight and riding style. Preload does not, as mentioned, change spring rate. Preload sets ride height when you are on the bike riding down the road. Adding preload will make the bike ride higher when you are on it riding down the road. That can be a good thing, but it won't make a spring that is too soft stiffer if you add preload. This has been covered repeatedly on here, but a standard path forward is to fully set sag. Setting sag will tell you if your springs are too soft, too hard, or right. If the sag of the bike is right with you on the bike (Race Sag is the term used for that), but the bike sags too much under just its own weight the springs are too stiff. If the Race Sag is right but the bike sags too little under just its own weight the springs are too soft (that means you had to add too much preload into the spring to get the Race Sag right, so sag under just the weight of the bike was reduced). Yes, it can sound backwards. If Race Sag is right and the bike sags the right amount under just the weight of the bike your spring rate is good. From there you can go about adjusting dampening to get the ride quality you are looking for. Harsh ride over jolts can be a lack of spring rate, but it can also be a lack of dampening. Set your sag first, and if required change your springs so sag is right. Then adjust dampening. A longer rear shock usually means higher ride height at the rear. But, as mentioned, it does not always mean that. The spring rate and preload do play a role. But with most longer rear shocks you are increasing the ride height at the rear. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alannn Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 I think the best way to think of preload is it places the (loaded) bike on average at the center of the springs range of travel, so that the spring experiences minimal occurrences of full extension and full compression. Personally, I like having my shock spring rate where my normal load requires zero (or close to zero) preload, and I just dial in more preload for extra luggage and/or passenger. On the other hand, from experience, I have noticed fork springs are usually designed with a minimum preload built in, even with the preload adjuster set to minimum. Possibly due to the fact that forks don't use the rising rate frame geometry typically seen for rear shocks. During use, damping also affects spring travel. When a bump is encountered and the suspension starts moving (accelerating), damping is what diminishes the inertia of that motion, for after the bump impact is absorbed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiomick Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, alannn said: Personally, I like having my shock spring rate where my normal load requires zero (or close to zero) preload, and I just dial in more preload for extra luggage and/or passenger. Yes. As I understand it, if you dial in too much preload, your suspension will top out when the wheel "falls into a hole". If you have to dial in that much preload to get the ride height to where it should be, your springs are too soft for the weight to be carried. If the springs are too soft, they will bottom out regardless of what you do with the preload. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pressureangle Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 The simple old-fashioned way to check suspension travel is to place a zip-tie on the fork tube, go through your areas of concern and read the travel via the zip-tie which has been pushed up the tube to record the maximum travel. 'Harshness' a LaGrasta stated about his driveway transition is not a function of spring (unless actually bottoming the fork) as it is too much compression damping. That said, if you're a fast rider, you may need that control at high speed which feels harsh at low-speed big bumps. My 'Sport is set up so that if I encounter a big pavement change such as parking lot/driveway, it will actually bottom; if I'm banging through the Dragon, it will compress to about less than an inch of max travel. At higher speeds, nowhere near that as cornering doesn't generate the G force that braking can. Let me make clear that I am no suspension scientist, just have my subjective feels, lightweight science such as zip-ties, a lot of personal experience from Roadracing, flat track, observed trials, and decades of anecdotal education from amateur and professional suspension users. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, audiomick said: Yes. As I understand it, if you dial in too much preload, your suspension will top out when the wheel "falls into a hole". If you have to dial in that much preload to get the ride height to where it should be, your springs are too soft for the weight to be carried. If the springs are too soft, they will bottom out regardless of what you do with the preload. Where my learning curve caught up with me, I had added significant preload to the stock forks because the springs were too soft for me. During a very sharp, low speed cornering correction (sudden increase in lean angle), the road went "off camber", essentially asking the suspension to "reach out" to maintain contact patch. The excessive preload caused the suspension to "top out", loose contact, and slide. Read: low-side. I realize there were several other factors, including rider error, but it would have been better if my forks had a little more "reach" (extension travel) that I had defeated with the excessive preload attempt to compensate for the soft springs. Just my one sad, but true, story to illustrate the importance of spring selection first, then preload, then damping. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaGrasta Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 So many great explanations, thank you all. After evaluating what I've adjusted, how it's reacting and what you've each advised; I believe my springs may be too soft. I think I'm the third owner of this bike. The guy I bought it from weighed more than me, albeit he did not ride it more than a 1,000 miles in over 10 years of ownership . My conclusion is the first owner must have been lighter than I and replaced the stock springs because the OEM springs should certainly be able to handle my 170lbs and gear no problem. I guess this gives me the start of my 2024 Christmas list. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaGrasta Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Searching RaceTech for fork springs, they recommend for my weight, the same spring as stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Traxxion Dynamics did a great job spec'ing my fork springs and nailed the preload spacers right from the start. In addition to weight (in gear), they used "riding style." I told them I ride like a jackrabbit on hot lava . . . 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaGrasta Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I also have Traxxion Dynamics AK on my 2010 V7, and they weren't even purchased for me, but rather the PO! They are great, but I believe these were $1100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 31 minutes ago, LaGrasta said: I also have Traxxion Dynamics AK on my 2010 V7, and they weren't even purchased for me, but rather the PO! They are great, but I believe these were $1100. What are those? Must not be just fork springs. Pretty sure mine were about $100US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 11 minutes ago, docc said: What are those? Must not be just fork springs. Pretty sure mine were about $100US. Those sound like (without actually looking) they are the cartridge inserts for the front forks. They should be the springs and the cartridge that does the valving. A very nice upgrade. Other vendors also offer them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaGrasta Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 https://traxxion.com/product/ak-20-axxion-motorcycle-fork-cartridge-kit/ The PO sent the forks to TD, to be tooled for this upgrade. As for the back shocks, he upgraded to Wilburs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motortouring Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 12/30/2023 at 5:14 PM, docc said: I see the Öhlins shock fitted to my short frame Sport is 286mm (relative to the factory Sachs 280.5). The change is ride height was notable, yet also affected (likely more so) by the stiffer spring and more aggressive sag settings. So no stability problems with the longer shock I think I am going to order the long Wilbers for my red frame as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Phil Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 1/18/2024 at 5:05 AM, LaGrasta said: https://traxxion.com/product/ak-20-axxion-motorcycle-fork-cartridge-kit/ The PO sent the forks to TD, to be tooled for this upgrade. As for the back shocks, he upgraded to Wilburs. Thats the US company I contacted 10 years go I was trying to think of. Very nice looking carts. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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