Kiwi_Roy

I really doubt the starter needed replacing after such a short life, who knows what he stuck on. An OEM starter can't cost too much. You did check the battery direction? On re-reading I see you bought a D6RA2, that looks right but I have never bought a new starter Please double check you have the right battery polarity. What is the milage on the bike? Do you mean a VII EV? Bassa or Jackal, all very similar

Just to confirm the old Bosch style wound field starters always rotate the same way because both the Armature and Fields are reversed. The Valeo runs backwards because the fields are fixed and only the Armature is changed Its easy to tell the difference because the wound field type have the 4 screws for holding the pole pieces in place. BTW I have re-named the second coil inside the solenoid the "Grunt coil", it does the Grunt work and you guys might remember it better The Holding coil 10 Amps and the Grunt coil 40 Amps, don't forget LOL

Gatorman, thats a bit of a weird one usually the starter doesn't spin until its engaged, the solenoid has to engage the gear before the main contacts will close. Have you had the battery out? Is the battery in backwards, a Valeo starter will turn backwards and not drive, a Bosch doesn't care, it always rotates the same way I believe the Valeo has a slip clutch that will prevent it driving on overrun or battery backwards. No, fuel injection makes no difference but the fuel injected bikes have a safety diode to protect the ECU if the battery is connected backwards

I'm not sure if you have solved this yet or not. Its caused by LED blinkers that draw next to no current and an idiot light that draws as much I came across this sketch I had done for another owner The type 194 lamp reference is to my favourite LED replacement for the Spine frame and EV idiot lights. (I can't recall if I still needed the diodes) I have some pictures of that if anyone is interested, because LEDs last forever I throw away the sockets and glue lamps in place. BTW all 12 Volt LEDs have a resistor or current limiter in series, we just don't bother showing it. Headlights for instance only need about 9 Volts, the rest is gravy, it gets no brighter.

As I said earlier if you touch a wire from the battery + to the spade connector that bypasses the start circuit Ignition switch and some connectors, this is how the starter should work, not thru a bunch of spaghetti wiring. You have probably seen me rant on about how the solenoid draws over 40 Amps i know of a couple of VIIs that burnt up because the main ground was connected to the bolt of the seat lock rather than a gearbox bolt. The seat lock bolt worked loose so the starter return current found its way back to the battery via the ground wire from the Voltage Regulator to battery negative. If you connect your meter from battery Negative (I mean the actual battery post not the lug) to a grounded bolt on the engine a bad main ground will show up as Voltage drop while cranking, I would expect to see less than 0.5 Volts I think Docc's 2000 may be wired with the Start Relay/30 wired direct from a fuse (not switched) Notice how the starter relay/30 terminal on this earlier bike is powered from an always live fuse 5, these early bikes never suffer Startus Interuptus but if you look down at the starter solenoid like all other Guzzi schematics its drawn wrong, one coil (the Grunt coil) is missing, the one that draws 40 Amps to pull in the solenoid. Fuse 5 can easily provide 50 Amps for a split second, the solenoid will slam the gear into mesh (in about 15 milliseconds) and the starter will spin. Now look at this one from a few years later, Luigi has completely changed the way the start relay is powered, terminal 30 is now fed from the Ignition Switch and a lot of spaghetti wires with several plug in connectors for good measure, he had another attempt at drawing the starter solenoid but again completely missed the Grunt coil. The supply to the starter relay is now seriously compromised, it will sluggishly draw the starter into mesh if it's a good day. Once engaged it will spin ok. On a bad day the Voltage drop will be too much, it won't engage and you get the dreaded click, it might also blow the 15 Amp F4 If you click on this drawing it will be easier to read. BTW, most of the modern Guzzis are compromised in the same way, works ok while everything is nice and new but as the connections start to deteriorate and the switch picks up some resistance the coil inrush current drops off until the grunt coil isn't able to do its job. MPH has made a small fortune selling kits to correct the situation. Both Veleo and Bosh starters have a Grunt Coil, I think the modern starters are a different brand but they will also. BTW, I recently purchased an 07 Griso, I made the starter solenoid operate 3 x as fast as Luigi had it just by increasing the wire size from relay to solenoid. If the factory would only draw the starter properly Startus Interrupts would soon be extinct LOL Sorry I added this just to show the Grunt Coil in the solenoid ( 0.25 Ohm)

I keep looking for uses for reed switches, those of you who have an old loop may recognize this Underneath it has 3 2 Amp switches activated by tiny magnets embedded in the lever. The lamps I use are LED so they don't draw a lot of current Because I'm still using the original sealed beam headlight I added a relay in the headlight bucket to select Low or High beam. The levers are just held in place by the magnets and small bits of steel screws act as an indents. I have since replaced the wires with a small cable salvaged from a computer mouse. The levers are a little different now, I will try to remember to get a better picture.

I don't have a picture but on one of my bikes I bolted a piece of that 1/4" white plastic breadboard material with 3 6mm bolts. A ground, + 12 Volts straight from the battery and another + 12V switched through a relay. Those breadboards are just a couple of dollars at Ikea and the material is really easy to work with.

Finally I am able to get back on here, For some reason I am unable to get on from work That's ok though, today is my last day there. I'm not convinced it's the battery, run a wire from the starter solenoid and touch it on the battery +, if it cranks like that it's something else. I guess this message must have shown up the other day but I couldn't see it, either that or I am loosing the plot. Hot wiring the starter will eliminate the possibility of bad wiring or a relay from the mix, just the starter, solenoid and battery

I think the problem you are having is Voltage drop in the ignition switch http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif The Starter solenoid can draw 40-50 Amps as it pulls the starter gear into mesh. If the switch is a bit dirty the solenoid might only see 20 Amps, not enough to pull in but the Voltage drop will show up as dimming panel lights. Even if the ignition switch was perfectly clean you probably only get about 30 Amps in the round-about route. The earlier VIIs like my 2001 have the start relay terminal 30 powered direct from the battery through a fuse so it can easily supply 50 Amps which makes the gear engage in about 15 milliseconds every time You can check this out on Carl's site for the 1999 VII Sport After the starter engages and the main contacts close the solenoid current drops to 10 Amps for the duration of cranking. Applying a battery direct to the motor will not crank the engine because the starter gear is not engaged with the ring gear. If you want to start most Guzzis apply 12 Volts to the spade connector on the solenoid or pull the start relay and apply 12 Volts to the 87 socket. On my Griso, I replaced the wire between the relay and the spade connector leaving it long enough so that it will reach the battery positive if need be. I just slipped a length of heat shrink over the bare spot on the wire to prevent it shorting to chassis.

Where did this old topic come from?, surely all owners are aware of "Startus Interrupts"at this day and age This effects nearly every guzzi built for the last 40 years and is very easy to fix. The starter solenoid would like to draw 40 - 50 Amps as it pulls the starter gear into mesh the factory don't seem to be aware of this. It hasn't got a chance the way it's wired through the ignition switch. The resistance of the wire and switch contacts drops the Voltage to the relay right down until the solenoid is too weak to move. Snip the yellow wire feeding the start relay and feed it with a decent supply direct from the battery and your troubles are over. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif Funny thing I only recently noticed that the bike has a built in aid staring us in the face, If you open up the schematic and trace the yellow wire from the start relay it wanders across the page and feeds the Number plate light, have someone watch the light and they will see it go dim when the starter hangs up. Sorry about the size of my sketch, I will fix it up in a few days If anyone still has a problem with failing to crank shoot me off a PM, I have literally been through it with hundreds of Guzzi owners. Cheers, Roy

I believe the OEM Ducati Energia problems are caused by the Voltage signal from the headlight relay, its not stable, the Voltage drop can vary from ~ 0.6 to over 1 Volt. to nothing at all depending on the state of the relays. If you look at some of the later bikes they have a direct connect system. Look at this 2004, not a DE I wonder if they ever have regulator problems http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif

Walterg posted this picture of an ignition switch a couple of years back. I would refresh it to show first of all what the 2000 era switches are like inside. The switch block is held onto the key part by 2 Phillips screws, it takes just a few seconds to drop off. Release the clip on the black body and tilt the white switch plate out. In this one the grease looks quite fresh, often its hard almost like candle wax. Wipe the old grease out and replace it with fresh Vaseline. Note how the green wire has snapped off, it did that because the wires aren't held at the back so they flex at the weakest part, next to the solder joint until the copper work hardens and snaps. I don't think it is possible to put the switch together wrong, at least I haven't managed to yet. When you put it back together, fasten the wires to the back cover and arrange them so the loom flexes gently over several inches, don't strap the wires tightly together.

The Ducati Energia regulator is fitted with diodes snd SCRs on the connection to the battery, these are typically rated at least 200 Volts Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't see it mentioned but the nice thing about LED headlights, they need less Voltage to operate, if you look at a typical one it may say something like Voltage 9 - 35 Volts, that means it will put out 100% light at 9 Volts anything more is just gravy, burnt up in the regulator.

I remember my Vincent Comet had aluminium gears that had worn quite sharp but the cams and followers were also toast Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What is the current status of this bike? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I used something like that, one on each relay 87 contact to chassis, this was a great troubleshooting aid. You soon get used to the light show and immediately recognize when something is amiss. Mount them by drilling a hole in the relay base although you could also mount them on a little plate beside the relays. Just pop each 87 contact out and solder the small wire to it. [image by docc_edit]

I think you need to eliminate all contacts and sockets, that's where the Voltage drops occur The Voltage reference draws about 15 milliamps so you cannot leave it permanently connected or it will soon flatten the battery. The resistance of the relay sockets and contacts will vary over time causing the Voltage to change, it needs to be consistent. A MOSFET perhaps triggered from the ECU or perhaps just a simple Emitter follower circuit. I don't have a bike with a Ducati Energia now but if anyone is interested in trying it send me a PM

Pick a direct connect one, not one that relies on relays to connect to the bike and you should be good. None of those include an upgraded rotor or stator. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I always like to replace the idiot lights with modern LEDs soldered in place to eliminate any joints. 194-x-90 from Superbrightleds.com For x substitute R, B, G, A depending on the colour, they need to match the bezel colour. 194-R-90 https://www.superbrightleds.com/checkout-b/cart?cart_shared=cf1255addb5f28c76f8d78de8480357d These lamps are AC so you don't have to worry about polarity and they have a shoulder that matches the VII dash for JB Welding in place. You can get lamp-holders for these lamps but they don't work well in the confines of the dash, besides an LED will probably outlast the owner. The Fuel Level and Full beam lamps need a little modification

I used the gearbox drive to supply pulses to a pulse input Speedhut Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Plexiform "Just curious what the verdict is on charging the odyssey battery while it is still in the bike? Can I charge it while it is in the bike? Do I need to remove the 30amp fuse? My battery has been holding up well without any charging since I installed it but now that the bike has been sitting for a couple weeks the charge is down to 12.65 so I figure I should give it a full charge now. Thanks for the help." It should be safe, with the key off the ECU is not powered up and the regulator will be isolated by the internal diodes and SCRs As long as no magic smoke escapes go for it.

If you decide to fit headlight relays and don't want to run an extra supply from the battery to the headlight bucket consider tapping into the feed for the ignition switch. I can't recall what size the wire is on the VIIs but on most Guzzis that's the fattest wire on the bike, Some of the older bikes don't even fuse the ignition wire, I always add a fuse at the battery something like 30 or 40 Amps but the VII shows fuse 2 http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_EV_Catalytic.gif

Swishdave, I believe the reason the SCR type burns out is because of the flakey Voltage reference, the Voltage drop gets a little too high so the regulator compensates firing the SCRs until they never turn off. This is particularly bad on the 01 with two relay contacts in series. Eventually the diodes overheat and melt the solder and the leads drop off, I have photos somewhere. I'm sure the Mosfet regs are much better and I would avoid anything that's a direct replacement for the DE. I'm glad Electrosport are more forthcoming, I never had a problem with mine but they refused to divulge what principle it works on. I agree, a Voltmeter is a great confidence boost, just like the oil pressure gauge, highly recommended if you aren't running a Roper plate.

It seems to me this thread covers just about every charging fault. I will go over a couple of faults, Overheating the 30 Amp fuse and the two yellow bullet connectors is caused by resistance (bad conections) A series regulator can only decide to start charging at the start of a cycle, once it turns on it's committed for the whole half cycle, we know the alternator Voltage can go sky high. Actually its not really that the joints are bad its just that the current with a series regulator can be so high, it's only limited by the power the alternator can put out, I suspect it peaks well over 40 amps for part of the cycle Heat is Current squared x resistance just for example a couple of different currents, lets assume we have 0.01 Ohms resistance in one of the joints 20 x 20 x .01 Ohms = 4 Watts 40 x 40 x .01 = 16 Watts twice as much current but four times the heat A shunt regulator on the other hand can turn off at any part of the cycle so as soon as the battery Voltage is high enough the regulator shorts out the alternator and the 30 Amp fuse is spared Using separate light relays to remove the load from the OEM headlight relays as Lucky Phil did is a no brainer, it ensures the Ducati Energy gets a stable Voltage reference, Actually a couple of times my regulators stopped and I got home by running a wire direct from the battery to pick up the male pin effectively making it a direct connect regulator, can't leave it like that because it draws about 15 milliamps which would quickly flatten the battery. The Ducati Energy must have a good ground connection, it has a tiny black wire all the way from the regulator case to the battery, its not good enough, those big current spikes act on that small wire creating large Voltage drops which effectively reduce the output. Lately I have been suggesting using an aluminum strap from the regulator case to a timing cover bolt (same metal all the way) and it could look quite neat. I used an Electrosport on mine and had no further problems (if I remembered to replace the fuse at the start of season) but I think I would go with a Shindengen next time only because I don't like the secrecy of Electrosport. I no longer have the need for either type with my 72 Eldorado and 06 Griso Good Luck