p6x Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 31 minutes ago, audiomick said: Clear as mud. I still reckon they're talking about RON. I agree. Whoever compiled the user's manual was most likely not someone understanding what they were typing. Here's where that 95 may have come from: Quote La limitazione all'uso della benzina con piombo tetraetile cominciò nel 1992, con il divieto di vendita di benzina con piombo contenente un numero di ottano ricerca inferiore a 95 (la normale ne aveva solo 84÷86, mentre la super 98÷100[11][12]) e la conversione a benzina "verde" delle pompe che la erogavano.[13] La super con piombo continuò ad essere distribuita estesamente fino al 31 dicembre 2001, quando ne fu poi sostanzialmente vietata la vendita.[14] In the manual shown by @MartyNZ the "95 No" is related to the prohibition to sell leaded gasoline with less than 95 Octanes. "Normale" means regular and had 84 to 86 Octanes, while the Super 98 to 100 Octanes with lead. I am guessing the manual is sort of saying that you have to use gas above 95 No, thus more than 86 Octanes. The manual may not have been updated properly for all the years. Could the manual be incorrect? 95 RM/min should be read 95 Ron minimum? but my V11 sticker clearly states 91 RON/min specific for 2004 too. The point 13 above states: Leaded Super kept being sold until Dec 31st 2001. Italian gas had some peculiarity as they had some pricing differences for specific uses. So they added a coloring agent to identify fraud.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 I will venture that all V11 Sport/ LeMans (V11 EV etc are a different animal!) run best on 95 RON/ 91 AKI (minimum). And further, that whatever sticker got applied to various US sold V11 LeMans swingarms, they are not a reliable reference, and for US/North America should have read either 95 RON or 91 AKI. We have seen worse translation errors . . . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 I say this, rather emphatically, yet wonder : > How did the V11 LeMans/Sport compression ratio actually get changed from early to late motors? > When did the piston oil sprayers get added? > Would the piston oil cooling affect the minimum octane requirement? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p6x Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 12 minutes ago, docc said: I will venture that all V11 Sport/ LeMans (V11 EV etc are a different animal!) run best on 95 RON/ 91 AKI (minimum). And further, that whatever sticker got applied to various US sold V11 LeMans swingarms, they are not a reliable reference, and for US/North America should have read either 95 RON or 91 AKI. We have seen worse translation errors . . . You may be correct too. So I am back to square one? 91RON on the sticker should read 91 ((RON/MON)/2) or AKI. In France, the minimum Octane number (RON) is 95 since 1991. That being said, Ethylene adds to the Octane. Could this be the explanation why a V11 runs fine on 87 AKI? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Across the board, maybe the operative term is "minimum?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Otherwise, I question whether the minimum octane requirement ever, actually changed across the V1 Sport/LeMans range . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 3 hours ago, docc said: I say this, rather emphatically, yet wonder : > How did the V11 LeMans/Sport compression ratio actually get changed from early to late motors? > When did the piston oil sprayers get added? > Would the piston oil cooling affect the minimum octane requirement? After thinking , I will have to say "IDK" to all 3 questions and take a stab at #3 . I would suspect the oil spray on the bottom of the pistons may cool the pistons enough to lower the piston / cylinder temperature enough to change things , I am not sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 16 hours ago, docc said: My 2000 V11 Sport Owner's Manual has this awkward jumble: Recommended [fuel]: Supergrade petrol (97 NO-RM/min.) Unleaded Petrol (95 NO-RM/min.) > First of all, I have no idea what "Supergrade" refers to except that it is contrasted with "Unleaded." Is "Supergrade" leaded gasoline? > No mention of ethanol. > It "seems" 95 RON is the manufacturer's recommendation and that converts to ~91 AKI (RON + MON / 2). I found one source that stated 90.25 AKI. I would/ have run 87 AKI "regular" US fuel in a pinch, but would not put heavy loads on the motor (eg: aggressive passing) especially in high ambient/engine temperatures. In "a pinch", I suppose a 2-stroke mix would be okay, but I tried diesel fuel once and didn't get much past pulling away from the pump . . . In "a pinch", I suppose a 2-stroke mix would be okay, but I tried diesel fuel once and didn't get much past pulling away from the pump . . . Docc, I take it you had to drain the diesel and start over? Sounds like a story for the Tennessee Spine Raid "Tech Sessions bourbon garage". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 My Suzuki did NOT enjoy it either . I got maybe a gallon in my bike . It was a long 15 mi. home . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRyter Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 20 hours ago, p6x said: Did not imply that you were suggesting anything either. I have ran the V11 with ethanol free gas, and now with 87 Octanes. I did not notice any difference with either. I was merely showing that Guzzi does recommend 91 minimum according to the USA way of computing. In France, the regular is named E-95, and is 95 Octanes using the European way of computing. What does Guzzi recommend there? In the 70's I did put regular in cars that required premium. I could run them smoothly, providing I would not be harsh on the gas pedal, and gear down before any climb. The engine would often keep running after I switched the ignition off, so you had to stall the car to shut it down. Gas in France always was a major source of indirect taxes. Still is. This time, with regular gas in the tank, the V11 did not feel any bit different than with premium, driving it my usual way. In 2004, Ethanol was not compulsory in the US, but was available as E10. In the US Ethanol mixed Gas became compulsory in 2005. Whatever Guzzi recommended at the time is based on data available then. Maybe E15 87 (R+M)/2) is good enough. I am not going to try E85 though... you might notice it if you were in heavy traffic in 90 degree heat and 60% humidity. Like stuck on Main street at Daytona Bikeweek or on a muggy summer evening trying to get into the Indianapolis Fairgrounds to see Flat Track race. Actually I ran my first Guzzi on regular. Not used to the gearbox, I took off in 2nd gear enough times to know better and went to premium. Yeah, it clattered pretty bad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p6x Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 13 minutes ago, LowRyter said: you might notice it if you were in heavy traffic in 90 degree heat and 60% humidity. Like stuck on Main street at Daytona Bikeweek or on a muggy summer evening trying to get into the Indianapolis Fairgrounds to see Flat Track race. Actually I ran my first Guzzi on regular. Not used to the gearbox, I took off in 2nd gear enough times to know better and went to premium. Yeah, it clattered pretty bad. Since the discovery of that "91 RON" on the sticker, which I never actually properly digested, as I assumed it meant 91 as in US Premium that varies from 91 to 93 for Ethylene baptized gases, I am tempted to check 87. There is no way, on a motorbike, that you would not catch knocking right away. But I am convinced that 91 was meant to be labelled (RON+MON)/2 but somewhat, only RON appeared. Maybe the labeling machine did not have no + signs? there is simply no 91 RON that makes sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 The reason I discredited the swingarm sticker as a reliable source is that it is not consistent for a label applied to satisfy (US) Federal requirements to display an octane measure (RON) not adopted by the US Federal Government or in use in the USA. It would be interesting for more members to report results from their Owners Manuals . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p6x Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 @docc I contacted the owner of the 2000 Quota 1100ES which I am contemplating to buy, and he always ran it with 87 Octanes fuel (AKI) in Boise Idaho. Never observed anything strange with the engine. Quota's compression ratio is 9.5:1 I have read a few Petroleum Companies narratives on the subject and they tag high compression ratio from 10.0:1 I think we have beaten this topic to death. 91 (Ron+Mon/2) is most likely what the sticker meant. Even if they had meant RON, there is no fuel sold that meets that criteria in Europe using the RON method of Octane calculation. It starts at 95 RON. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Realize that not all "V11" are the same. The V11 Quota and V11 EV do not have the aggressive valve sizes and cam profiles of the V11 Sport/ LeMans. They are likely "Regular Gas" animals . . . I am still interested to see what other Owner's Manual have printed in them. Even to the extent of any mention of ethanol fuels in the last of the V11 LeMans series. Yet, also, I would find it interesting to clarify when (if) the V11 LeMans/Sport compression ratio changed and how that was accomplished (different pistons?). And, did the compression ration change when the " under-piston oil sprayers" were added? My understanding is that was accomplished with a different connecting rod that incorporates channels from the pressurized big ends to orifices that spray the pistons at the top. This is such a rudimentary understanding, I would enjoy a better understanding of how this is done . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p6x Posted August 1, 2023 Author Share Posted August 1, 2023 @docc Look page 9 of this manual: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/owners_manual_quota_1100.pdf Remember that Italy kept selling leaded gasoline quoted SP97 for Super 97 NO could mean "numero di ottano"; this Quota operator's manual looks like an excel spreadsheet converted to PDF. We get to the same conclusion: 95 NO is the minimum of Octanes for leadless fuels. Equates to 91 AKI. All the questions you have are valid, but where to get the answers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now