Do you ROCOL your 80W90 in your rear drive?

[p6x]

You must have noticed, in your V11 Owner's manual's lubricant table, the rear drive needs a mixture of 80W90 0.350 liter and 0.020 of ROCOL ASO/R.

According to ROCOL's technical data sheet, ASO Oil is a Molybdenum disulphide oil reinforcement for non-EP mineral oils.

However, a 5 liter jerrycan costs around 500 USD depending on the website, with a shelf life of 2 years from date of manufacturing;

This Liqui Moly MoS2 seems the better alternative:

Who here adds 0.020 liter of Molybdenum disulphide in his rear transmission mineral oil?

Why only in the rear drive and not in the gear box?

 

 

[docc]

1 minute ago, p6x said:

Why only in the rear drive and not in the gear box?

 

I'll let @Pressureangle, and others, answer that last question . . .

From new, I used Moto Guzzi's FinalDrive lubricant (with the specified moly content), until it became NLA. Then I found it as a Motul product, IIRC. After which, I used a moly additive to ordinary gearoil. After fighting rear drive leaks and using various products for another ten years, I settled on RedLine ShockProof Lightweight/blue (reportedly containing a "synthetic moly").

YYMV

[MartyNZ]

41 minutes ago, p6x said:

Who here adds 0.020 liter of Molybdenum disulphide in his rear transmission mineral oil?

Why only in the rear drive and not in the gear box?

I use Power Punch EP1. I bought a bottle from Moto International while they were still open. It will outlast me, even with @cash1000 using it too.

You can buy it here: 

https://www.powerpunchinc.com/Gear_Oil_p/ep1-each.htm

I imagine that it is specified due to lower speed than the gearbox, but higher loads and sliding tooth contact. 

Docc's use of Redline Shockproof probably makes moly unnecessary.

[p6x]

1 hour ago, docc said:

I'll let @Pressureangle, and others, answer that last question . . .

From new, I used Moto Guzzi's FinalDrive lubricant (with the specified moly content), until it became NLA. Then I found it as a Motul product, IIRC. After which, I used a moly additive to ordinary gearoil. After fighting rear drive leaks and using various products for another ten years, I settled on RedLine ShockProof Lightweight/blue (reportedly containing a "synthetic moly").

YYMV

The actual standard is no longer 80W90, but rather 75W90. Besides, Gear Oil has also embraced all synthetic recipes.

In any case, I am not worried about the 80W versus 75W given the temperatures in Texas.

I ordered the Liqui Moly Molybdenum disulphide which I will add to 80W90 Motul mineral oil to make 0.370 liter.

[docc]

Watch for signs of over fill at that volume. Some amount of any gearoil will not drain from the internals, but clings. Repeated volumetric refills are a formula for overfill and seal stress.

just my 0.00005 lire

[Lucky Phil]

I use Molybond Formula 2.5 available in a 60gram tube. The gearbox doesn't need it because it uses constant mesh straight cut gears and has far less of the sliding action meshing of the rear bevel box hypoid gears. In reality you could probably use a high quality full synthetic gear oil these days just fine. I'm rebuilding a bevel box at the moment and just waiting on a new input shaft input bearing. You now the combined needle and split ball one you need to mortgage your house to buy.

 

Phil

 

 

[pete roper]

Phil? Ate you making a tool for the pinion ring nut or do you want to borrow mine? I’d give it to you but Michael might need it later after I’m fully retired, (Or dead!🙄).

[audiomick]

33 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

... In reality you could probably use a high quality full synthetic gear oil these days just fine....

I've been reading up on the recommended oils for my bikes, trying to find out if I can use the same oil in all three of the Guzzis.

In the course of that I've read exactly that from a couple of reliable sources, i.e. that modern synthetic gear oil doesn't need the additive. I'm still not sure whether I'll choose to believe that or not...

 

PS: In the german forums, they generally refer to "Molykote 2" as the appropriate additive, which I think is a trade name.

[p6x]

12 hours ago, docc said:

I'll let @Pressureangle, and others, answer that last question . . .

From new, I used Moto Guzzi's FinalDrive lubricant (with the specified moly content), until it became NLA. Then I found it as a Motul product, IIRC. After which, I used a moly additive to ordinary gearoil. After fighting rear drive leaks and using various products for another ten years, I settled on RedLine ShockProof Lightweight/blue (reportedly containing a "synthetic moly").

YYMV

I found this oil, still from Motul: Motul 31721L Gearbox 80W-90 Molybdenum Bisulphide (MoS2) Reinforced Extreme Pressure Gearbox and Differential Lubricant

I also looked at the Molybdenum Sulphide additives and found that some only work with mineral oils, not synthetic ones.

Dupont (reputable chemical company) has one: "Molykote M Gear Oil Additive"

Finally, there is some interesting information about the use of Molybdenum Sulphide in oil, initially not used in engines directly because it would accumulate in the sump/crank case.

I read that there are now oils that include it, with Liqui Moly being one company that allegedly does. Liqui Moly was one of the few companies that answered my query. I am going to check if I can get some more information.

Quote

thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.

ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphates) has been the most common AW (anti wear) additive comination in the past but has been more and more replaced / displaced by more modern chemical AW and EP (extreme Pressure) additives in today´s motor oil formulations due to enviromental regulations and new developed additives.

The Zinc / Phosphorus level itself is regulated by the ACEA and API rating as well as by the vehicle manufacturers. Zn and Ph are still part of the additive package but only "small pieces of a big puzzle". It´s the well-balanced combination of many different additives inside the additive package of a oil that gives a oil a specific performance - so don´t focus only to the Zn level to identify how "good" the anti-wear properties of an oil is, that´s why we don´t focus on publishing this particular value.
 
Our Motorbike 4T Synth 5W-40 Street Race has a outstanding additive combination inside and is well-proven to work proper under racing conditions in high performance motorbikes. It is suitable to use for all bikes  where a oil according to current specifications is required or recommended, the level of Zinc is above 1000 ppm.

 

[GuzziMoto]

The short answer to the OP question; No. I don't add moly to my gear oil.

In my opinion (which is worth exactly what you payed for it), if you use the right oil no additive is required. Sure, you can use a lower grade oil and add moly to it, or you can just use a better grade oil. There is no magic in a Guzzi final drive, it is a pinion and ring gear set with some bearings. There are plenty of vendors that make gear oils suitable for those needs without adding anything to the oil.

But everyone should do what they want to do, what they feel comfortable doing.

[Lucky Phil]

14 hours ago, pete roper said:

Phil? Ate you making a tool for the pinion ring nut or do you want to borrow mine? I’d give it to you but Michael might need it later after I’m fully retired, (Or dead!🙄).

Thanks Pete I'll let you know if I need it. I'm collecting the seals and bearings at the moment. I have some seals already. I will need to make up a dummy pinion bearing so I can set the gear backlash and position as well. Should be no problem. 

Phil 

[p6x]

13 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

if you use the right oil no additive is required

Exactly... the "right" oil;

Moto Guzzi's advises to use 80W90 mixed with Molybdenum Sulphide;

Are you going to ruin your final transmission if you don't?

Are you going to increase the longevity of your rear drive if you do?

Will using the right oil make you feel more comfortable?

I am just digging into the topic for the sake of getting opinions. Who was even aware of the initial requirement to add MS for just the final drive? and why only the final drive and not the gearbox?

[Lucky Phil]

19 hours ago, p6x said:

Exactly... the "right" oil;

Moto Guzzi's advises to use 80W90 mixed with Molybdenum Sulphide;

Are you going to ruin your final transmission if you don't?

Are you going to increase the longevity of your rear drive if you do?

Will using the right oil make you feel more comfortable?

I am just digging into the topic for the sake of getting opinions. Who was even aware of the initial requirement to add MS for just the final drive? and why only the final drive and not the gearbox?

Motorcycle gearboxes don't need a hypoid oil either and an engine oil will suffice for lubrication. Even automotive gearboxes can use a non hypoid oil. We used to run ATF in Holden manual gearboxes 40 years ago without issues. After all auto gearboxes are full of gears as well. The Guzzi's just use it "because they can" but Japanese and Ducati gearbox gears aren't any bigger in dimension or quality than Guzzi gears and engine oil is fine for them as a lubricant. The main issue with Guzzi and BMW gearboxes and bevel boxes is the gears run IN an oil bath as opposed to simple splash lube like a Ducati or Japanese bike gearbox so they need an oil that resists foaming better than an engine oil. Engine oils can handle the lubrication requirements but probably not the foaming issue generated by gears running in an oil bath.    

 

Phil 

[guzziart]

FWIW, I'm running name brand 80w-90 gear oil and Kalgard moly something or other additive I bought years ago for my MG's and have not enocountered a rear drive problem.  That being said.......

The rear drive issue I had a few years ago ( and complained about it here) was a result of the original owner of my Lemans replacing the r. drive with a used unit because the original r. drive began to leak and rather than fix it, he replaced it.  When I got the bike I decided I wanted the original r. drive back in the bike and went through the effort to get it oil tight and reinstalled into the bike.  Yeah, I got a good "spare" rear drive now.  Does anyone need one??  It has black wrinkle finish paint on it whereas my original is black satin. 

Art

[p6x]

I got the reply from the Liqui Moly customer service:

Here's the recommendation:

Motorbike MoS2 shooter 20mm for all your needs: https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/us/motorbike-mos2-shooter-p004197.html#20296

He very politely and politically avoided direct answers to absolutely all the technical questions about the gear oils, mineral, synthetic, additives, and of course, he remained non committal about use of Molybdenum Sulfide in engine oils.

To sum up, if the manufacturer's recommendation matches, then it can work for your application.

 

We can happily lay this topic to rest, without many new certitudes; one more "what oil works best in your V11 engine"....